Does it matter. IAF attacks into civilian areas are just as bad as Quassams or suicide bombers. Yetserday three children died as a result and today 2 more civilians, whilst the targets escaped. I agree that there was hysteria about the Gaza beachincident, but had Israel not fired there shortly before, no accusations would have come their way. There can be no double standart. Civilian death caused by Israel are civilian deaths full. I was surprised you are still talkning abiout this incident when even Amir Peretz courtmarshaled the chief if staff and the Israeli papers Haaretz and Jerusalem Report testfy to the post beach killings.

IAF does not deliberately target civilians. If Hamas et al didn't hide behind children, no children would be killed.

Israel fired upon Gaza because Hamas was firing rockets into Israel. if Hamas had not fired shortly before, there would be no Israeli rockets. If Hamas didn't fire rockets into Israel daily to try to kill civilians, Israel wouldn't have to hunt down and kill the perpetrators.

Israel holds its chief of staff accountable and doesn't cheer at the killings of innocents. Palestinians blame Israel for their own handiwork.

I see you aren't commenting about the girl being operated on to remove shrapnel or the girl filmed after the explosion. Do Israelis wound and kill their own children to stage propaganda events? You know the answer to that one as well as I do. (Also see Jenin and Muhammed al-Dura.)

You are the one with a double standard, not me.

Daniel is of course absolutely right to take you to task. It's oh so easy to always end up blaming the Palestinians for everything that goes wrong in the conflict. How convenient to do so. Then you never have to face any weakness or moral doubt in your own position.

Using your logic, Israel will never arrive at a peaceful agreement w. the Palestinians because the latter lie, cheat, steal, can't be trusted, etc. It would be all well & good to lead such a charmed, but deluded life except that there is a price to be paid for it. That price is continued death, mostly of Palestinians (which bothers you only a little) but also of Israelis (which bothers you quite a lot).

Answer me this. Which is the greater threat? IDF assault on Palestinian civilians or Qassams lobbed into Israel? Five Israeli dead in four years from Qassams (which is bad enough). But 13 Palestinian civilian deaths fr. errant IDF attacks in the past MONTH. You apparently don't believe in or understand the concept of proportionality. Is proportionality when no Israelis are ever killed or injured & devil take the Palestinians?? If so, that's a world you'll never live in. Bloody reality will intercede & prevent you fr. enjoying such an existence.

You're also deluded when you say that the IDF never deliberately targets civilians. If the IDF says it will fire artillery within 100 meters of residential areas as it has done; & the spray of its shrapnel covers a potential 200 meter area, this means ipso facto that you are targeting civilians. Doubtless you'll have some snappy ideological comeback for this but if it's as convincing as what you've written here, it will fall short, far short.

And as Ahlama Peretz wrote on the front pg. of Maariv two days ago: there is only one sure way to end the Qassam rocket attacks--dialogue with the Palestinians. Every other way including military action will ultimately fail. The hardline pro-Israel crowd will never learn that lesson.

Though I'm happy to say that when the conflict is resolved (as it will be), the very views decried by folks like you (territorial compromise, negotiation with the Palestinians, withdrawal, etc.) will be the ones that win the day. There will be peace some day in the not too distant future; and it will not be on terms you will find agreeable. But those terms are ones that will allow both sides to achieve a compromise and end the conflict. That comforts me.

"It's oh so easy to always end up blaming the Palestinians for everything that goes wrong in the conflict. How convenient to do so. Then you never have to face any weakness or moral doubt in your own position."

You sound pretty certain of your own position too. Do you ever hold the Palestinians accountable for anything?

"sing your logic, Israel will never arrive at a peaceful agreement w. the Palestinians because the latter lie, cheat, steal, can't be trusted, etc."

No, my logic is that all Palestinians are not like that, and a truly peaceful agreement will only take place with those who are not. It sounds to me like you do not expect any honest, trustworthy, and ethical behavior from Palestinians, and if I do I am deluded. I guess I have a better opinion of the Palestinian character than you do.

Do you think all or most Palestinians support suicide bombings or making their own children into martyrs, or like the fact that extrmeists are willing to use their children as cannon fodder? If they do, can there be any true dialog or peace agreement? If they don't, does it help them to empower those who do?

"That price is continued death, mostly of Palestinians (which bothers you only a little) but also of Israelis (which bothers you quite a lot)."

Half of all Pelestinians are killed by other Palestinians. Some of the ones killed by Israelis are actively trying to kill Israelis and Palestinians. I don't want to see any innocents killed, and I support killing the Palestinians who kill each other and Israelis.

"Five Israeli dead in four years from Qassams (which is bad enough). But 13 Palestinian civilian deaths fr. errant IDF attacks in the past MONTH."

Comparing 4 years of deliberate rocket attacks with 1 month of "errant" IDF attacks. Thank you for making my point. And your argument is dishonest. During this 4 years hundred of Israelis were killed by suicide bombers, a much higher proportion being children and mothers and old people than the deaths on the Palestinian side, which are mostly young men (the demographic that actively seeks out danger and martyrdom). But you want to make your stats look good, so you compare rocket attacks, since you can't compare suicide bombings.

"You apparently don't believe in or understand the concept of proportionality. Is proportionality when no Israelis are ever killed or injured & devil take the Palestinians??"

I don't want any innocents killed, in whatever proportion. The innocents in my post were all killed by Palestinian terrorists. Are you helping the average Palestinian by making excuses for the terrorists who target them?

"there is only one sure way to end the Qassam rocket attacks--dialogue with the Palestinians."

Israel has been "dialoguing" with the Palestinians for 40 years. During which time Palestinian terrorists, claming to represent all palestinians, have assassinated a US Presidential candidate, a US ambassador, 11 Israeli Olympic athletes, an old American in a wheelchair on a pleasure cruise, countless Israeli and American civilians. They have hijacked numerous airplanes and blown up a few of them. They have received payments from Saddam Hussein for suicide bombers. Their corrupt and despotic leaders have gotten millions and millions of dollars in aid money from the EU, UN, and the US, most of which has gone for weapons and Swiss bank accounts, while Palestinians lack basic necessities. When given farms and greenhouses and buildings by the disengagement, they burn them down. Their leaders carry aorund huge bags of cash they either lose, or deal out to cronies, instead of regularizing a banking system so that Palestinians can make an honest living.

If you excuse all that by declaring them victims of Israel, then you deny them moral agency. I hold them accountable for their actions, including choosing their leaders. Every other oppressed ethnic group on the planet has behaved better than they, most of whom are far more oppressed.

Ask the Israeli Arabs if they would rather live in Palestine. Any time Israel tries to run the fence in a way that puts an Arab village on the border inside Palestine rather than Israel (i.e. giving the Palestinians more territory), they get very upset. Arabs in East Jerusalem are trying to buy land in West Jerusalem because they don't want to live in Palestine. Gee, I wonder why.

Also, Daniel's and Richard's furious condemnations are in response to a post aboutchildren with ball bearings and watch parts in their bodies. And Palestinian children with shrapnel from a bomb for cold-blooded propaganda purposes. all these children were maimed by the same people. You excuse them, I'm on the side of the Palestinians who don't want to excuse them. You side with the Palestinians who lie, cheat, steal (your words), I side with the ones who don't.

Hey, it's nice to see Richard Silverstein checking in with his contrarian views. That reminds me that I need to do another update on the surge of Palestinian conversions to Judaism, which Richard enjoys reading so much, based on past comments.

Van, I would like to see that too!

Contrarians are good. I wouldn't want it this to be an echo chamber.

More discussion here.