Judith,

I'm wondering whether Kofi left them there because he was afraid that Israel would seize the abandoned bases and find evidence of UNIFIL complicity with terrorists. See this thread at Free Republic: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672971/posts

"What on earth were they officially supposed to be doing there anyway?"

I'm not sure, but it clearly hasn't been a great success.

What on earth is the IDF officially supposed to be doing there anyway?

Rescuing kidnapped soldiers. Any success? Nope. Any hope of success? Not a chance.

So let's not chuck too many stones from our glass house, eh?

And do you really care exactly what Olmert said, since you've clearly already decided that the UN are a bunch of terrorist sympathisers who deserve to be killed? Of course, they're an easier target than Hezbollah, and don't shoot back, which is one way of keeping down Israeli casualties.

"What on earth is the IDF officially supposed to be doing there anyway?"

Decisively defeating Hziballah so that the threat is permanently removed. No, they have not yet gotten the soldiers back, which is one of their goals, but not the only one. Which you would know if you read closely and were concerned with honest thoughtful discussion, instead of showing how snarky you can be.

I read your bio on yr blog, you sure don't talk like an older married man with kids. You come across like a snotty teenager, for example, twisting around what I actually wrote. I never said the UN troops deserved to be killed. I did say Kofi should take responsibility for their deaths. I do think he used them.

However, yes, the UN is a bunch of terrorist sympathizers. Did you watch the video above? Did you see my previous photo of Kofi shaking hands with Nasrallah?

The question remains, what were unarmed UN personnel doing in a war zone being shot at, when they are not one of the armies. I can see them being assigned there to monitor a cease-fire (if they would do so neutrally and not help Hizballah as they have done in the past). But there is no ceasefire, there is a war. Kofi knows that Hizballah uses them as shields, so he should know Olmert can't guarantee anything. Why didn't he pull them out?

The UN also is full of s*xual predators.

(* inserted because of my hypervigilant spam system.)

"do you really care exactly what Olmert said"

I think Olmert said whatever he said knowing who and what he was dealing with.

Also UNRWA allowed the growth of the Jenin terrorists.

The blue helmets are reduced to patrolling, then even more marginally to solely "observing" from their posts; if they can monitor the movement of Hezbollah operatives and other terrorists setting up new encampments and entrenchments in nearby locations, there exists no army or air force like the IDF and IAF to call on and radio through the coordinates for immediate action to be taken before the terrorists position themselves too closely such that the proximity target would include the UN post itself - all thanks to the impotence of the Lebanese army.

Why doesn't the UN train soldiers? Because it's exclusively a "peacekeeping" force, so somehow that phrase turns them into Jehovah's Witnesses? When will Kofi Annan and his disillusioned colleagues wake up to the reality that in order for the UNIFIL to secure its objectives, it needs to deal with terrorists the only way they know how to: merciless and swift action to annihilate the threat at any cost?

The UN posts and the Hezbollah outposts probably have tacit collusion:

"If you tell anyone we're here, we'll kill you."

"But you need us. This place. Without it as a shield, you won't be able to protect yourselves."

"If the IAF kills you along as well as my men...what do you feel about that?"

"err..(nervously twiddling thumbs, then flashing the v-sign)...Peace?"

Anyone who can be persuaded to collude with terrorists - even the Lebanese who allow Hezbollah to store rockets and weapons in their homes - has dug his or her own grave as collateral damage.

Now, if as a last resort, the "peacekeepers" are heroic enough to sacrifice themselves in the process of betraying Hezbollah encampment coordinates, then it might just send a message to these mindless terrorists that we aren't afraid of putting lives on the line - as long as it means your minions of evil can't use it.

Call it the dog in the manger, but that's the only way to deal with these beasts of darkness.

Judith, you accuse me of twisting what you said, but nothing I have read on this blog or in my comments boxes makes me doubt that you believe terrorist sympathisers in a combat zone deserve to be killed. Good grief, it's IDF policy: if you hide terrorists, or abet terrorists, or supply arms to terrorists, then you forfeit your "civilian" status and we come after you. And except that it's impossibly difficult to tell such people apart from the genuine innocents, I wouldn't disagree.

So on the one hand you consider the UN in general and UNIFIL in particular as terrorist sympathisers. I know I got that right, you just repeated it. And terrorist sympathisers in a combat zone deserve to be killed. I feel a syllogism coming on here. So no, I don't accept that I twisted your words, though it's possible I have misunderstood something. What?

All I can tell from your profile is that you're female, from NY and working in IT. So no comments from me about being surprised that you're twenty or fifty-five. I think I write better now than when I was a teenager, and like everyone else I have good and bad patches. Some of your own posts and comments are well put-together, and some not, some much less so. If I sometimes seem flippant it's because, as I remarked over on EKN, I find your views on so many subjects so extreme that I simply can't take them seriously. I doubt, for example, whether you'd find more than a handful of people in a thousand-mile radius of Edinburgh who would agree with your regret for Berlusconi's political demise. I have no doubt that if we were to meet, and could keep off the topic of Israeli foreign policy, we'd probably get on OK, albeit with outbursts on both sides of "You cannot be serious!" every thirty seconds or so. Maybe we should just talk about music (and maybe I'd better not mention that the CD currently loaded up in my car is the Dixie Chicks..(:->) ).

Hi,

Okay, I'm slightly biased. I'm a logistics specialist with the UN Department of Peacekeeping Operations (UNDPKO). I'd just like to set some facts straight.

1) The Ambulance
There's no way that's a UN ambulance. All UN ambulances are covered with the three protective emblems of the Geneva Conventions (red cross, crescent and crystal), the UN seal and the agency they belong to (ie UNIFIL or UNDOF). They also only use blue lights. We think that might be a PA or PLO security force vehicle in the movie.

2) What were the unarmed observers doing?
UNIFIL was established for three reasons: to confirm the withdrawl of Israel from southern Lebanon, to restore international peace and security, and to assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. UNIFIL unarmed observers staff UN posts around southern Lebanon and activly monitor the conflict and rport back daily. That's what they were doing when they were hit by a precision guided missile.

The IDF has a map showing all UN positions in southern Lebanon. We maintain constant liason with the IDF and Hizbullah in an attempt to protect our personnel. We remind / warn all approching military personnel in English , Hebrew (which is a really cool language), and Arabic that they are approaching UN observers, where we are and that they should not fire on us. Over 11 reminders that transformed into warnings were given to IDF (and acknowledged) that they were shelling a UN position before the missile was fired. The decision to withdraw UNIFIL is not up to Secretary-General Annan, but to the UN Security Council, who has mandated that this force remain acting in their current capacity until at least the end of this month.

UNIFIL personnel *WERE NOT* set up. They were intentionally hit by IDF personnel. We have evidence that will be released sometime in the next two weeks that they were targeted to prevent them from observing. Stay tuned to the UNIFIL website.

3) Proportions
I'm going to be generous and say that 70 Israelis, mainly military personnel have been killed so far. Around 954 Lebanese, 1/3 under 12, and the rest mainly civillians have been killed. Those are the official numbers. Sadly, UNIFIL internal estimates peg the number of dead Lebanese around at least 1500. We cannot enter many places to tally bodies and many scenes in southern Lebanon are scarily similar to what happened during the Sabra, Shatila and Jenin massacres. We fully support Israel's right to defend itself, within reason. However, this is completley out of proportion, not to mention illegal under international law. Please... stop fighting Syria and Iran in Lebanon. Fight them in their own countries. Lebanon is a country the size of Delaware that has become caught up in this conflict. Almost 20 years of reconstruction have been destroyed.

4) Hizbullah
I'm not supporting their military activities, but I'd like to point out that they are really a paralell government, as opposed to a terrorist organization. They run schools, hospitals, clinics, food distribution stations, public works and more. As such, it is necessary for the UN to maintain liason with them. The Lebanese government is struggling, and Hizbullah has filled the void when services have not been provided by the government. Also, the two Israeli soilders were captured, not kidnapped. Kidnapped is civilian on civilian, capture is military on military.

I hope this has helped you view this conflict in a new light.

Best Regards,
Ping Myiagi

*PLEASE NOTE: this posting does not reflect the official views of the United Nations, nor its organs (UNDPKO, UNIFIL, UNDOF) or Secretary-General (Mr. Kofi Annan). For official UN views, please visit the UN news centre at www.un.org*

Hi,

Okay, I'm slightly biased. I'm a logistics specialist with the UN Department of Peacekeeping Operations (UNDPKO). I'd just like to set some facts straight.

1) The Ambulance
There's no way that's a UN ambulance. All UN ambulances are covered with the three protective emblems of the Geneva Conventions (red cross, crescent and crystal), the UN seal and the agency they belong to (ie UNIFIL or UNDOF). They also only use blue lights. We think that might be a PA or PLO security force vehicle in the movie.

2) What were the unarmed observers doing?
UNIFIL was established for three reasons: to confirm the withdrawl of Israel from southern Lebanon, to restore international peace and security, and to assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. UNIFIL unarmed observers staff UN posts around southern Lebanon and activly monitor the conflict and rport back daily. That's what they were doing when they were hit by a precision guided missile.

The IDF has a map showing all UN positions in southern Lebanon. We maintain constant liason with the IDF and Hizbullah in an attempt to protect our personnel. We remind / warn all approching military personnel in English , Hebrew (which is a really cool language), and Arabic that they are approaching UN observers, where we are and that they should not fire on us. Over 11 reminders that transformed into warnings were given to IDF (and acknowledged) that they were shelling a UN position before the missile was fired. The decision to withdraw UNIFIL is not up to Secretary-General Annan, but to the UN Security Council, who has mandated that this force remain acting in their current capacity until at least the end of this month.

UNIFIL personnel *WERE NOT* set up. They were intentionally hit by IDF personnel. We have evidence that will be released sometime in the next two weeks that they were targeted to prevent them from observing. Stay tuned to the UNIFIL website.

3) Proportions
I'm going to be generous and say that 70 Israelis, mainly military personnel have been killed so far. Around 954 Lebanese, 1/3 under 12, and the rest mainly civillians have been killed. Those are the official numbers. Sadly, UNIFIL internal estimates peg the number of dead Lebanese around at least 1500. We cannot enter many places to tally bodies and many scenes in southern Lebanon are scarily similar to what happened during the Sabra, Shatila and Jenin massacres. We fully support Israel's right to defend itself, within reason. However, this is completley out of proportion, not to mention illegal under international law. Please... stop fighting Syria and Iran in Lebanon. Fight them in their own countries. Lebanon is a country the size of Delaware that has become caught up in this conflict. Almost 20 years of reconstruction have been destroyed.

4) Hizbullah
I'm not supporting their military activities, but I'd like to point out that they are really a paralell government, as opposed to a terrorist organization. They run schools, hospitals, clinics, food distribution stations, public works and more. As such, it is necessary for the UN to maintain liason with them. The Lebanese government is struggling, and Hizbullah has filled the void when services have not been provided by the government. Also, the two Israeli soilders were captured, not kidnapped. Kidnapped is civilian on civilian, capture is military on military.

I hope this has helped you view this conflict in a new light.

Best Regards,
Ping Myiagi

*PLEASE NOTE: this posting does not reflect the official views of the United Nations, nor its organs (UNDPKO, UNIFIL, UNDOF) or Secretary-General (Mr. Kofi Annan). For official UN views, please visit the UN news centre at www.un.org*

To the administrator - I just realized I used my UN email. Please cancel the previous submission and use this one instead. Thanks.

Good for you Ping!

So you really believe Israel has a right to defend itself? To live? I agree!

Many do not believe Israel has that right. Israel is at war with those people. What "proportionate" means would you recommend to Israel for destroying Hezbollah, which has committed itself to genocide against Israel? Please limit your response to those means that would actually accomplish the task of destroying Hezbollah.

I see also that you and I agree that the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers is a military act and not a simple crime. You and I think alike here! So, given that this act establishes a state of war between Lebanon and Israel (some people, not smart folk like you and I, but some, might say it wasn't Lebanon but hezbollah, but you and I know that an act of war committed from a nation's territory, with the acquiesence of that nation's government, is an act of war by that government regardless of who wrote the check), what steps can you recommend that would hasten the unconditional surrender of Lebanon, the aggressor nation, or at least restore status quo ante-bellum?

I am intrigued by your description of Hezbollah as a government. Yes, they provide many services, but then again, so do mining companies. If you accord them the status of a government, I can only assume that you agree that they currently occupy territories the world agrees rightfully belong to Lebanon. As such, what will the UN do to assist Israel in ejecting this invader from Lebanon and restoring Lebanese sovereignty?

And one area in which we do not agree, Ping. Once, I served in a UN command too, and there are some things I am quiet knowledgable of. One is the fact that the Israeli Army is extremely competent. Another is the employment and capabilities of artillery. Anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge would realize that you are very wrong in thinking that a UN border post would be targetted to neutralize its capability for observing. This is not a job for high explosives, as you have to be 100% certain of 100% casualties. This is a job for a heavy smoke barrage. That is the competent thing to do and the Israelis are competent. You mentioned that the Israelis were already shelling the position, yes? But not with smoke? The Israelis did not employ a heavy smoke barrage, so clearly the intent was not to defeat observation.

Certainly, you are aware that a Canadian officer has already confirmed that Hezbollah operated in an around the UN position frequently. Therefore, as you have no evidence to the contrary, I believe you were misled.

Ping, a little reminder for you: ANYONE who says "believe me now, I promise conclusive evidence in two weeks" or "I will glady pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today"* is lying.

Ben
* My apologies, Ping, if you are not old enough nor of the appropriate nationality for that particular cultural reference.

Ben makes some good points.

Still, at least Ping pointed out the obvious, which is that the 'UN ambulance ferrying around Gaza gunmen' is no more a UN ambulance than my MPV would be if I stuck 'UN' on the side i masking tape and borrowed the orange flashing light from the road works round the corner. And for nailing that lie, we thank him.

Now we just have to wonder whether all the video clips on Kesher Talk are fraudulently labelled or whether some are actually faked. But I won't wait two weeks for conclusive evidence of *that* either.

Rob, feel free to offer contrary evidence on anything I have posted, in comments here, or on your blog, or email me.

One week on, and no indignant denial that the 'UN ambulances ferrying around Gaza gunmen' label was a fraud? I suppose that would be difficult to deny. I must confess surprise that nobody at KT has corrected the labelling though. I really thought you guys, loopy though you are, had more integrity than to leave up a label which states a lie, viz. that the vehicles in the video clip are UN ambulances rather than unconvincing fakes. And if you're happy to go along with that much deception, are you bothered about whether the clip really shows Hamas gunmen or whether it was all shot with actors in a studio in Tel Aviv?

Must go now and find a picture of Mel Gibson falling down drunk so I can post it with a label saying "Australian actor drugged by Zionists". (Actually, there's probably one out there somewhere with that label on already....)