Interesting. So far, Jonothan only presents one Arab/Muslim country -- Lebanon. I'm not sure what the Iraqi government has or hasn't passed into law since it was elected, but as I recall, when the question of the right of Iraq's sizable Jewish diaspora population to return was raised, it was quickly ruled out. And I doubt, when Ahamdinejad raised the issue of sending Israel's Jewish population back to from whence they came, that he considered the fact that about 200,000 of them are of Persian descent.

I think you're kidding yourself if you imagine that Israel's Law of Return registers strongly on anyone's things-we-don't-like-about-Israel-ometer.
Not compared with land grabs, murder of civilians, collective punishments and the like. Maybe people in New York get excited about it, but not so much here in Britain.

But since you raised the matter, do any of the other 23-25 countries with Laws of Return have laws which grant citizenship to third-generation decsendants of one ethnic or religious group, while denying citizenship to members of a differenmt ethnic or religious group who were born there and whose families had lived there for hundreds of years before being forcibly expelled? If so, which ones? Do you know? Do you care?

Ah, Rob is back. Whenever I look at anti-Israel fulminations, one of the accusations is that Israel is "racist," and evidence given for this is frequently that only Jews can be citizens, which isn't even remotely true. When this is pointed out, the racism charge is amended to "Any Jew can become a citizen of Israel automatically but the Palestinians can't." (In fact, everyone but Jews have to go through the same kind of citizenship process as any other country.)

",do any of the other 23-25 countries with Laws of Return ......"

Go to the link and read the list and find out. Some of them do, yeah.

Do I care? 20% of the citizens of Israel are Arab Palestinian. Almost none of the citizens of the surrounding Arab nations are Jews, and Jews lived in those places for hundreds of years before they were forceably expelled. (In fact, sizable communities of Jews lived in Persia, Babylonia, and Egypt before Islam was even invented.) Let's put that bargaining chip on the table along with all the others.

But since neither Israel nor the Arab states want any of those people back, the negotiation will be some kind of monetary compensation on both sides. but since the Arab states want to keep the Palestinians as the tip of the spear in destroying Israel, they don't want to engage in any final negotiation.

Did you know that Jordan and Israel are the only two nations in the Middle East where Palestinians can become citizens at all?

/Ah, Rob is back./

Did I go somewhere? How long did I spend on the kinkyjews site that Van directed us to? (Checks watch.) Gosh.

/Whenever I look at anti-Israel fulminations, one of the accusations is that Israel is "racist," and evidence given for this is frequently that only Jews can be citizens, which isn't even remotely true./

Must be why I never said it then. Of course, even the US State Department reckons that Arabs in Israel have severely compromised human rights, esecially as regards property ownership, where they can live and the extent to which they can participate in the political process, but if they're foolish enough to want second-class Israeli citizenship, yes, they can have it.

/When this is pointed out, the racism charge is amended to "Any Jew can become a citizen of Israel automatically but the Palestinians can't." (In fact, everyone but Jews have to go through the same kind of citizenship process as any other country.)/

Well, as I never made a racism charge I didn't have to 'amend' it, but nice try. Nor did I suggest that Palestinians in general, for example from Gaza, can't become citizens. However, Israel has assiduously blocked any attempts by those expelled from what is now Israel to return home. While the 'right of return' being sought (I forget which of Israel's shattered UN resolutions we're on with this one) is these days mostly relevant to second- or third- generation exiles, Israel has been refusing to consider any such return since most of those affected were the original first generation. Which was my point.

/Go to the link and read the list and find out. Some of them do, yeah./

I'll take that as meaning "Don't know, don't care."

/In fact, sizable communities of Jews lived in Persia, Babylonia, and Egypt before Islam was even invented./

Ah, the argument from age of religion. That don't impress me much.

/Did you know that Jordan and Israel are the only two nations in the Middle East where Palestinians can become citizens at all?/

No I didn't. I suppose those two are the ones whose land is where most of their families come from. On the off-chance you can save me much Babelfishing of Arabic, do the others deny it to any incomers, or do they make a specific exception for Palestinians (presumably to put pressure on Israel, as you suggest)? In other words, could an Iraqi become a Syrian national but a Palestinian not, or is Syria generally unwelcoming?

As I said, if Israel wanted to grant citizenship to Mongolians with a single Jewish great-great-great-great-grandmother neither I nor anyone I know would bother about it for a second. Hell,it's their country, and I've never heard a single person complaining about expedited citizenship per se. It's delayed citizenship that's the contentious issue; the other 'right of return'; the one for the original occupants of what is now Israel. Because in one sense it's their country too. FWIW I imagine they'll end up 'returning' to whatever Palestinian state we end up with, if they go anywhere at all; beyond that, as you say, we're going to be talking about money.

Rob, I am not putting words in your mouth. I am repeating assertions I hear and read on this topic. Your original point was that you never hear this theme in anti-Israel discourse. I was saying that I do.

I should check what the State Dept says. I'm not going to assume it's right.

"While the 'right of return' being sought (I forget which of Israel's shattered UN resolutions we're on with this one) is these days mostly relevant to second- or third- generation exiles, Israel has been refusing to consider any such return since most of those affected were the original first generation."

No other refugees have ever been granted "right of return" past the generation that actually fled/were expelled. So the 2nd and 3rd generation - forget it. Israel should be held to the same standard with refugees as other countries, and that is also an issue to be negotiated, as it usually is.

/n fact, sizable communities of Jews lived in Persia, Babylonia, and Egypt before Islam was even invented./
"Ah, the argument from age of religion. That don't impress me much."

The point is that half the Jews of Israel are from those countries, until 1950. None of them have gotten compensation or UN resolutions. The fact that they lived there continually for centuries before the people who kicked them out just adds insult to injury.

And Jews also lived in the West Bank (the heart of historical Israel) since 1600 BCE at least. (The earliest archeological evidence where they are recognizably Jewish.) Centuries before the people they are supposed to leave it to and who have destroyed several historical holy places and threatned and hurt Jews who visited them.

" do the others deny it to any incomers, or do they make a specific exception for Palestinians (presumably to put pressure on Israel, as you suggest)?"

Most of them have the kind of restrictive immigration policies as Jonathan listed, so I don't think they accept immigrants from each other. Permanent residents, yes. Full citizens, no.
Contrast to Israel, which has the same kind of openness as the US or Britain.

"It's delayed citizenship that's the contentious issue; the other 'right of return'; the one for the original occupants of what is now Israel. Because in one sense it's their country too."

One could say the same about Jews who had lived in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, for centuries.

if the Palestinian who do want a state next to israel had been in charge, all this would have been settled years ago, as it has been or is being settled in other parts of the world - these things happen all the time. They are unjust and unpleasant, but common, and mostly worse than Israel's management of the problem. But they don't get slews of UN resolutions and international opprobrium.

My sticking point is the injustice of double standards. A judge who blatantly administers in a biased fashion has no credibility or legitimacy, and should be ignored. if the people most hurt by the bias (the Palestinians) want anything reasonable, they should show they can play well with others and not take over the agendas of international institutions. But most of that is the fault of their leaders and those who use their leaders as sock puppets for THEIR imperialist ambitions.

The Euros and Arabs and UN have also been at fault in lionizing and justifying Arafat and his ilk, which has made it that much harder for local moderates to get control. And shoveling money at the PA, which just goes into the pockets of thugs who shake down honest businessmen, which undermines thier ability to make a living because they have to compete with this welfare society, making it even harder to establish a stable middle class with a stake in a civil society. You could compare this situation to the US welfare policies of the 60s and 70s which created ghettos and destroyed families and locally-generated jobs, out of misguided paternalism. But this is worse because the intent of the leaders is malevolent, even if activists like Rachel Corrie are/were motivated by justice.

I know you keep zooming in on specific conditions and I keep zooming out to the big picture. But the specific conditions cannot be remedied under the present situation without erasing Israel, which would be a bigger injustice, and the remaining Palestinians STILL wouldn't have a real state - it would be a puppet of Syria and Iran like Lebanon.

Another reason to hold the line is that Iran is trying to become the next superpower and expand her domination of the area. Which would be a disaster for moderate Palestinians also. Think Europe right after WWII - Iran is the USSR and Israel is an Eastern European country (and the Pals are some minority group in that country with a grievance). Do we want to repeat the Iron Curtain? See, one reason I like Bush is that he gets what this is about, whatever his mistakes in handling it. Kerry did not get it at all, he would have been like Carter.

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, the recent war and the takeover of Hamas in the territories means that any Palestinian statehood has been pushed into the far future. Israel can't afford rockets on its borders which can reach anywhere in the country, or even most of it, or even the third that was under fire in August. That's suicide. But this has been the case since the beginning. A Palestinian state was always a stalking horse, and letting thousands of Palestinians become Israelis is a stalking horse. The tragedy of the Palestinians is that they get used this way, but also true that enough of them collude with it or are bamboozled by it.

Actually I don't care. There are many other peoples who are suffering under worse oppression, who don't glorify terrorism, who keep their dignity, who aren't at blatant war with my people, who get my sympathy. For example the Kurds, the Tibetans.....
Fuck the Palestinians. They stopped being Israel's responsibility long ago, and they chose to be align themselves with terrorists and genocide advocates. Israel doesn't owe them anything and is being too consiliatory and gullible as it is. Well, after the last war, not anymore, one would hope.