I can only guess.

(a) God protects those who love Him but the wicked He brings low. It follows that those who died in the Holocaust somehow deserved it. Therefore, the Holocaust -- as human evil -- doesn't exist.

(b) The Holocaust led to the (illegitimate) establishment of Israel by human will.

But let me offer a third guess.

(c) These guys are f***ing insane.

madness, simply madness. Just what we needed- a Jewish poster child for the Ku Klux Klan.

Or, that being Jewish is observing the covenant between the individual and God, not the idolatry of material land worship promoted by Zionism, which wouldn't be so bad if it didn't come on the backs of others.

Ultra-orthodox is a meaningless term. Orthodox Jews run through a variety of spectrums on their position on Israel.

The Neturei Karta though are alone in embracing Islamic terrorists, Neo-Nazis and Louis Farrakhan. This is in part because

A. They've received funding from the Palestinians and other Arab money.

B. The current groups of people calling them Neturei Karta have an iffy connection to the actual Neturei Karta and are as often as not a bunch of very messed up people, not all of them Orthodox or religious.

There's not much in the way of halachic reasoning going on, just cutting and pasting textually anti-zionist quotes from Rabbinic figures in the 19th century and the usual three oaths business, which takes all of 5 minutes to shoot down since Israel was created legally under the authority of the League of Nations and the UN.

We are Jewish.

We hate Jews.

QED

An interesting take on three oaths.

"Ultra-orthodox is a meaningless term. Orthodox Jews run through a variety of spectrums on their position on Israel."

Yeah, but they are all crazy. When you try to discuss something with them they start yelling at you within 5 minutes. I am still very glad to be not Orthodox.

Well speaking as one of them crazy Orthodox fellas, I promise to wait at least 10 minutes before yelling at you.

Interesting piece on the three oaths.

It should be pointed out also that their source is an aggadata gemara and there were widely differing views on the extent to which something like that can be binding.

Anti-zionists typically tend to quote the authorities that support their case and ignore everything else.

Personally I feel the simplest position is to point out there was never any violation as the State of Israel was created through the consent of the nations, there was no mass ascension 'Behomah' 'In a Wall' but a staggered process over a century and a half

Nothing more than standard hyper-religious nihilism then. Nothing happens that is not the Will of God, therefore it makes no sense to actually do anything.

They have many blind spots, the most obvious of which is this: If historical events like the Holocaust are the will of God, why isn;t the founding of Israel also the will of God? We can even go paradoxical- perhaps it is the God's will that people deny that the Holocaust is God's will. In fact, the whole "will of God" thing eventually boils down to a mess. If we accept that all events happen because they are God's will, we must then recognize the fact that on the most basic level, God's will looks an awful lot like the mathematical laws of probability. Of course, that may be the will of God.

One thing is clear: they should not have flown to Iran. If it was God's will that they attend the conference, He would have transported them there.

These are the sort of people who simply wouldn't get that old joke about the guy who prays to win the lottery, and gets an answer from God: "Help me out on this one. Buy a ticket."

Ben

I think Attila's analysis is the most likely: they're nuts.

In my opinion, they--and everyone else--make up their religion as they go along.

My aunt had a friend who would not cut his grass, he said it was against God's will. Go figure.

All these nuts deserve each other. Come to think of it, if your going to bomb Tehran I could not think of a better time.

They don't think of God's will as some philosophical conundrum. They 'know' what God's will is and its conveniently fits their prejudices and agenda.

much as Ahmenajidad doesn't sit around all day wondering what Allah's will is. He knows what Allah's will is.

It's for him to have lots of power and kills lots of Jews and other infidels.

Convenient, isn't it

ISRAEL NOT A SECULAR STATE
--------------------------

Alcibiades,

How can you say that israel is a secular state, when NOT all citizens are equal and the distinction is drawn along religious lines???

That's secular to you Alcibiades?

Well you know the conference is bad when the Guardian has a leader that condemns it despite they knew about the ensueing storm of hatred from Jew-haters.

Sultan,

I'm in agreement about your take on the three oaths.

Israel's inceptiion was by peaceful political means. It was a gift. The war didn't start until after the gift was given.

I posted to that effect at the site.

Ben,

Superrposition doesn't collapse until there is an observer. So maybe it is the will of the maker to create an observer to give the universe form.

Interesting thought no?

Yes, the anti-zionist counter to this is that the Arab nations were the ones who got to decide if Israel was to be created or not.

But the League of Nations, England via the Balfour Declaration and the UN represented a global consensus. Israel had been in the hands of the British up to that point and under the authority of an international mandate... not in the hands of the Arabs. Thus on the authority of those who governed the land, Israel was recognized as a state.

One can make the direct analogy with the second temple where the ruling empire gave permission but some of the locals living in the area engaged in hostilities to the Jewish return. It was the ruling empire however that mattered.

This is simple.

Stupidity and rationalization are the second and third most powerful forces in the universe, following ignorance.

I feel sorry for those they teach

So many Bens here *cough*

Hehe the picture shows them kissing.

Those anti-zionist jews are talking to that guy that wants to kill all jews, WTF is that? Those Jews should be banned from Israel, because they are acting very non-jewish. They wants all other jews to die?

What is that wonderful old Ashkenazic expression of disgust... ...Feh!

Talmudic scholarship of such a quality reminds me of the joke about the guy who pretends that he wants to reneg on a promise to a friend to live with him for a year, rent free, so the impoverished friend can build a nest egg.

The rabbi, after over a week of deliberation, approves of the reneg. So the two friends return to the "renegger's" home to settle accounts. The "renegger" declines the friend's rental fees, saying his only purpose in bringing the matter to the rabbi was for his guest to see what an idiot the rabbi was before he left to rejoin his family after a year's separation.