...both warrior kings and gentle poets

As far as I remember, the Greek cities were at war with each other almost constantly. All of them. Gentle poets? Pshaw! The Spartans just decided to specialize in warfare and Lycurgis supplied a carefully thought out program to achieve that end. Sparta was the first fascist state, if you will, and greatly admired by the other Greeks for their prowess. But the Athenians were no slouches in the spear and slice department.

It's a rhetorical exaggeration, a flourish of prose, my point being that these two societies, perceived as social opposites, nevertheless both contributed crucial components to victory. I think it would be a good lesson for today.

Ben

i dont think seige towers are mentioned anywhere in the Iliad. obviously, Troy was not going for historical accuracy and yes, its a truly horrible film -- the one exception being peter o'toole's speech to brad pitt which is, not surprisingly, the only moment in the film which is taken almost verbatim from Homer's epic -- but the lack of military engineering would seem to be accurate. or, at least, faithful to the war as portrayed in Greek epic mythology.

One of the great parts on the History Channel review was that Salamis was, I believe, the third encounter between the Greek and the Persian Navy during the campaign under Themistocles. It was the critical one for finally convincing the Persians that they had no future in Greece, but the critical damage done in the second encounter off of Artemisium removed the chance of long-term seaborne resupply. Even with the pontoon bridge over the straights, ships played a key role in the logistics for the Persians. They had the bitter knowledge that they could burn Athens but not keep it... Salamis was the final blow that forced Persia back for good and all. The lovely thing is that Themistocles saw this coming years earlier and lied to get Athens to build naval vessels! Now *thats* a politician!

Coming from a comic book background, whenever you get Frank Miller involved, as he did 300 back in the '90s, you understand that his artistic license must be taken into account. As part of the program he pointed out that for the static page, armor does very little to show posture, beyond the basics, and that to get an idea of motion and to make combat fluid he did get rid of the armor. Actually, for a film, ranks of bronze breastplates, helmets, greaves and shields make for a very impressive showing of the Heavy Hoplites of Sparta. Unfortunately they went with Miller's vision as the more martial arts oriented work is easier to train and coordinate for, than having the actors sweating it out in bronze armor day after day.

The greatest shock to the Persians were Heavy Hoplites... they were unprepared for a true military culture like Sparta, and if the pass behind them had been kept by the force that was sent there, the limit of sustaining the pass would be that of the defenders - leaving the attackers to wear themselves down and out in frustration. Even with that, breaking The Immortals on the second day guaranteed that Xerxes was not going to have the disciplined core needed to keep the campaign going for a long time. The Immortals were his best and most well trained, with their moral broken going on was going to be 'touch and go'.

One of the military analysts pointed out that the force that was sent to the pass was over 7,000 soldiers. What Leonides did was move out the bulk of the soldiers during the night in small groups to get past the compromised area and re-group. 300 Spartans and 400 Thebans, 700 Thespians remained to allow the bulk of the Army to escape to fight another day. But for the Spartans it was: "With your shield or on it." Return home in victory or death.

After that generation would come Philip of Macedon, uniting the Greek City States for good. And his son would conquer Egypt, Persia and much more... Alexander the Great. But you would not get a united Greece without Leonidas and Themistocles.

Would that we could see the Ranks of Bronze glinting in the sun, and the leaden heart of Xerxes seeing soldiers in bronze plate with bronze shield on the second day.

Dr. Hundert pointed out an important change in Western ethics that has taken place. It would give another aspect to the assessment of Themistocles. Edward Hundert gave the example of a moral assessment then of a Greek Admiral. The story was that he had trained his sailors well in the ships; the ships were in good order. When they went out to sea, they were however scattered by a storm and the operation ruined. The Admiral was not viewed as morally correct. If he had been then the gods would not have scattered his ships. It gives another perspective to the announcement from Marathon, "Nike" or victory. The normative Western vision now is seen through Kant after whom, if a thing is impossible to do, it is not morally necessary to achieve it.

"i dont think seige towers are mentioned anywhere in the Iliad."

Note:
"Then was heard the din of battle about the gates of Calydon, and the dull thump of the battering against their walls."

Presumably this would be by means of a covered ram, and not fists.

" but the lack of military engineering would seem to be accurate. or, at least, faithful to the war as portrayed in Greek epic mythology."

There isn't much to go on in the epic, and I would make 3 points here.

1. Seige engineering is mentioned, if obscurely.
2. The idea that you need to build things like mobile ladders to take a fortified city was pretty well known at the time.
3. They obviously had the resources and skills to build a big wooden horse. In 10 years, no one thought of ladders? Absurd.

Ben

I think I had another comment but it vanished.

Ah, well, the gist was that yes, the Illiad actually does reference seige weapons.

"Then was heard the din of battle about the gates of Calydon, and the dull thump of the battering against their walls."

This would be probably be a covered ram.

But the ancient Greeks thought a lot like contemporary film makers: Seige engines aren't nearly so much fun to watch as heroic warriors going mano a mano.

Ben

fair enough, but most of the combat in the Iliad describes hand to hand or chariot combat. Homer also knew his audience.

My complaints to Mr.Ben,who clearly expresses his knowlege on this review or should I say subject,without watching the movie.Your thoughts and coments warrant a accomplished nod,from the rest of us that simlpy relish to hear the abvious-common sense.
You nailed it right on sir,well done.

I watched the movie and was surprised to see how the battle of thermopylae was somewhat true to the historic rhetoric.