Thank you for posting this.

Since I'm neither Jewish nor Catholic, perhaps I don't have a dog in this fight but regarding the return of that mass...so what? In my view, basically all religions consider themselves superior to others. If someone thinks their way is the way to heaven and mine isn't, hey, good luck. As long as you're not trying to convert me at the tip of a sword, you can believe whatever you want. Maybe devout Jews won't see it this way, but I welcome the return of the Latin Tridentine Mass on two grounds....one, anytime we can restore something from Western Civilization that had merit, good deal. Not only am I happy to see Latin return in common Catholic services, I'd like to see Latin AND Greek back in public schools.

Second, I like seeing leftists and liberation theology types squirm at the return of the TM. That's probably a sin of some kind, but hey, it IS satisfying.

A thoughtful answer or post. I think a valid point is that there are some pretty things, the 'Kyrie,' the only part of the Mass in Greek, you have heard a kind of instincted up version in 'The Lord of the Flies,' is very pretty in its change of registers, a cry out for mercy and comfort; 'qui tollis peccati mundi,' 'who carries the sins of the world' in chant has an eternal quality about it. Those have continued in publically open monastery Churches. The languages do not need to be studied again by every schoolchild. Of more interest to me is the 'historical criticsm' of the Gospels which in fact the Pope seems to have opened up more to study though he has traditional conclusions in his recent book, remarkable for his saying he was not speaking 'for the magisterium. Anyone was free to disagree with him.' So I would like to see the Jesuit high schoolers study Albert Shweitzer's 'Quest of the Historical Jesus,' really an interesting detective tale for a Christian, rather than the traditional 'Odyssey' of Homer. My letter to Father Postel here in Dallas is still in gestation.

This discussion of the prayer in the blogpost I think I have delayed getting to. Good Friday is a very solemn day in the Catholic Church but the Mass is a kind of festival, they talk of 'feast days' in relation to a Mass. We are taught that, at least in our ceremonial reflection, Christ hung on the cross from noon to 3 and then died. It is a 'religious experience' that is served alone and with desperation. I don't know anybody who has gone or mentioned going to the Good Friday Mass which is in the evening; it is not a day of obligation to go. Really the prior experience and reflection I mentioned is more emphasized in the tradition.

I was born and raised Catholic but now I am Evangelical.

I find what you wrote here to be quite interesting.
And yes, among the Evangelicals there is the challenge of evangelizing the Jews, whether it should be done or not. As you can see from the name, Evangelicals are driven to spread the Gospel and hope more and more accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, whether they are atheists, agnostics, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians or Jews, Evangelicals feel that it does not matter if you were born into a religious system or even a Christian church. Unless you have accepted PERSONALLY Jesus as Lord and Saviour, then you are not saved yet!

There is no question that amongst groups today, the Evangelicals are the strongest supporters of Israel as a Jewish nation. Even Israelis recognize that the Evangelical support is stronger than some American Jews!!!

Some denominational Christians are accusing Evangelicals of following Dispensational Theology, with Jews having their own Covenant with G-d and Christians their own. (because of Evangelicals strong support for Zionism, called Christian Zionism) That sounds what this unknown Second Vatican Council decision sounds like. That Jews do not need to be under the Church Covenant.

In some circles, Dispensational Theology is considered a heresy.

Fortunately, they do not burn 'em on stakes anymore.

Of course, those same people that accuse others following Dispensational Theology think that talking and being friends with Muslims without converting them is OK...talking about irony!

I’m a fairly devout, conservative Catholic. Firstly, the Church hasn’t given up on the conversion of the Jews: the teaching of the Church is that all are called to it. The quote you give above is not from a Vatican II document, but from “Reflections on Covenant and Mission” which is an authoritative teaching document. However, there has definitely been a movement away from direct evangelisation.

To quote Benedict XVI, writing when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, “We are in fact waiting for the moment when Israel, too, will say Yes to Christ, but we also know that know that while history still runs its course even this standing at the door fulfills a mission, one that is important for the world. In that way this people still has a special place in God's plans. God has not, then, retracted his word that Israel is the Chosen People? No, because he is faithful. Of course, we can see that Israel still has some way to go. As Christians, we believe that they will in the end be together with us in Christ. But they are not simply done with and left out of God's plans; rather, they still stand within the faithful covenant of God. Does that mean that Jews will have to recognize the Messiah, or ought to do so? That is what we believe. That does not mean that we have to force Christ upon them but that we should share in the patience of God. We also have to try to live our life together in Christ in such a way that it no longer stands in opposition to them or would be unacceptable to them but so that it facilitates their own approach to it. It is in fact still our belief as Christians that Christ is the Messiah of Israel. It is in God's hands, of course, just in what way, when, and how the reuniting of Jews and Gentiles, the reunification of God's people, will be achieved.”

Secondly, the prayer for the conversion of the Jews in the 1962 Missal is just part of a series praying for the conversion of everybody in turn. In both the old and new forms of the Mass, the order of the prayers shows that Jews ‘outrank’, as it were, every other sort of non-Christian. The 1962 prayer may describe the Jews as having a veil of blindness on their hearts….but the pagans are described as idolators who have iniquity in their hearts, and non-Catholic Christians are described heretics and schismatics led astray by the deceit of the devil, and urged to lay aside heretical evil. In this context, I don’t think the Jews are making out too bad.

Also, just to get nitpicky with Michael’s comments: the Good Friday service, which is always held in the afternoon, is not a Mass, and could not really be described as a feast, at least by itself. It is one part of the three-part Easter Triduum of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter Vigil on Saturday night. Technically a Catholic is only required to go to either the Vigil or any Mass on Easter Sunday…but I really can’t imagine not going to all three! It's quite an experience.

Oops! I meant to say that "Reflections on Mission and Covenant" is not an authoritative teaching document. Also, I should have mentioned that Good Friday not only cannot be described as a feast day, it is specifically a fast day.

Atlantic

That was interesting comment on the different ranks of prayers of conversion from the 1962 prayers. How the Jews outrank the non-Catholic Christians.

Here is an article by Los Angeles Times' Religion Beat writer, who converted from Evangelicalism to Catholicism:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lostfaith21jul21,1,3746042.story?track=rss

And I am sensitive to the word "conversion", which to Jewish ears is a warning word.

I was in a situation in which my family almost disowned me because they thought I was converting away from Catholicism to Protestantism (heretic). I was explaining that I still believed the same thing, only I was going beyond, more "advanced". The irony is that most of my family members, even though nominally Catholic, do not even go to church or do anything related to the religion while I am faithful being part of a community,actively participating and even leading it; while other "Catholic" family members get involved in weird Japanese New Age type cults and bow down before holy Asian bowls, they do not get any mentions or reprisals like I got when I decided to go into Evangelicalism!

Atlantic

That was interesting comment on the different ranks of prayers of conversion from the 1962 prayers. How the Jews outrank the non-Catholic Christians.

Here is an article by Los Angeles Times' Religion Beat writer, who converted from Evangelicalism to Catholicism:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-lostfaith21jul21,1,3746042.story?track=rss

And I am sensitive to the word "conversion", which to Jewish ears is a warning word.

I was in a situation in which my family almost disowned me because they thought I was converting away from Catholicism to Protestantism (heretic). I was explaining that I still believed the same thing, only I was going beyond, more "advanced". The irony is that most of my family members, even though nominally Catholic, do not even go to church or do anything related to the religion while I am faithful being part of a community,actively participating and even leading it; while other "Catholic" family members get involved in weird Japanese New Age type cults and bow down before holy Asian bowls, they do not get any mentions or reprisals like I got when I decided to go into Evangelicalism!

Psaturn

Actually, I wrote the Jews ‘outrank’ all other non-Christians. In the current ordinary Mass, the order of the Good Friday intercessions is: For the Church, the Pope, Catholics, people preparing to be baptized as Catholics, non-Catholic Christians, Jews, non-Christians, and atheists. In the 1962 Missal, the order at the end is heretics and schismatics (ie non-Catholic Christians), Jews, then pagans. But out of those three groups, I think the language used seems least harsh for the Jews!

I’m sorry about your experience with your family. Lukewarm Catholics-in-name-only are in far more spiritual danger than devout Protestants, IMO. On the other hand, I would have to say that there are some very definite differences in Catholic and Protestant teachings – and of course as a Catholic I obviously would disagree strenuously that Protestantism is “more advanced”!

Also, it seems that LA Times writer – who doesn’t give any good reasons for becoming Catholic – pulled back from entering the Catholic Church at the last minute, and then (apparently) lost his faith entirely. There are much more solid Evangelical-to-Catholic stories out there.

The reason for the Jewish protest is based on the original Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass used by the Catholic Church between 1570 to 1962) in particular, a Good Friday prayer. In it, Catholics ask that God "lift the veil covering the hearts of Jews so that they may recognize Jesus Christ our Lord."

I think part of the (my) confusion is that the claim, voiced recently by the Simon Wiessenthal Center, involved this prayer which apparently was not part of any Mass. Mass is I believe, reflecting on Atlantic's comments, prohibited on Good Friday. So the prayer is not part of "the original Tridentine Mass" but may be part of the penumbra to it. The priest has prayers in his breviary to say for each day and the prayers on Good Friday, from my perspective, would seem to be his sharing of such prayers with the faithul in lieu of Mass. Atlantic has commented on the prayer as it has exsted for the last 30 years; I wonder if he would have any comment on the earlier, Tridentine era, version.

original Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass used by the Catholic Church between 1570 to 1962)

A correction I should have noted earlier: The Tridentine Latin Mass has been so-called because it was codified and made uniform the Latin Mass throughout the Latin-rite Church (ie for the vast majority of Catholics) at the Council of Trent in 1570. However, the Latin Mass dates back centuries before that, parts of it at least a thousand years. The Tridentine has remained in use continually since then (even though a very small minority). 1962 is simply the latest revision of the Tridentine liturgy; the newer Mass introduced after Vatican II took effect in late 1969.

I think part of the (my) confusion is that the claim, voiced recently by the Simon Wiessenthal Center, involved this prayer which apparently was not part of any Mass. Mass is I believe, reflecting on Atlantic's comments, prohibited on Good Friday. So the prayer is not part of "the original Tridentine Mass" but may be part of the penumbra to it.The priest has prayers in his breviary to say for each day and the prayers on Good Friday, from my perspective, would seem to be his sharing of such prayers with the faithul in lieu of Mass.

The Good Friday service is not a Mass, but it’s in lieu of Mass and exists in the liturgy the same way as a Mass does, and thus there is a Good Friday service for every rite – Tridentine, Vatican 2, or otherwise. It isn’t the priest’s breviary prayers.

(Side note: on Good Friday, there can be only one service per parish, and no private Masses, so this motu proprio provides that unless the parish has the 1962 Missal as its normal liturgy (some incredibly tiny percentage at the moment), the only Good Friday service is the Vatican 2 one.)

Atlantic has commented on the prayer as it has exsted for the last 30 years;

Only to mention the order of intercessions. I haven’t commented at all on the text in the newer usage.

I wonder if he would have any comment on the earlier, Tridentine era, version.

Pretty much what I already said: the Good Friday prayer for the Jews is part of a series praying for the conversion of everybody in turn, not just the Jews. The 1962 Tridentine prayer describes the Jews as having a veil of blindness on their heart, but the pagans are described as idolators who have iniquity in their hearts, and non-Catholic Christians are described as heretics and schismatics led astray by the deceit of the devil, and it is prayed that they lay aside their heretical evil. If anything, the language used about the Jews is the least harsh.

I’m moving house, so I may not be able to check these comments for the next 10 days. (Maybe on Sunday?) I will, however, be happy to continue this discussion after that!